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標題: [Noctuidae] moth ID? please..
james4j
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moth ID? please..







[ Last edited by  hkmoths at 2007-3-2 23:33 ]
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發表於 2006-11-27 18:32  資料 短消息 
# 2 Nyctemera adversata Arctiidae

# 1 Spirama retorta
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QUOTE:
原帖由 Gilbert_HoHK 於 2006-11-27 18:32 發表
# 2 Nyctemera adversata Arctiidae

# 1 Spirama retorta

thanks...

P.S.請問有邊本蛾的參考圖鑑介紹
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我睇roger篇論文既標本的. 暫時坊間未有一本關於香港蛾類既書. 最快都要等roger出個本書. 不過同hk butterfly一樣咁貴. 過千.
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等Dr. Roger的出版吧, 不過要過千$$$$$
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發表於 2006-11-27 19:08  資料 文集 短消息  Yahoo!
HK butterfly仲有得買嗎???
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QUOTE:
原帖由 blackdogto 於 2006-11-27 19:07 發表
等Dr. Roger的出版吧, 不過要過千$$$$$

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QUOTE:
原帖由 blackdogto 於 2006-11-27 19:08 發表
HK butterfly仲有得買嗎???

好似要上網訂. 或睇下有無人放2手書. 我都未睇過. 好想睇下. 有機會既話. 去下銅鑼灣間library找找.
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#3. 燕蛾科 Uraniidae - 灰蝶敵蛾 Orudiza protheclaria
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QUOTE:
原帖由 貓魔鈴 於 2006-11-27 20:27 發表
#3. 燕蛾科 Uraniidae - 灰蝶敵蛾 Orudiza protheclaria

點解我找不到.. 我在燕蛾科找不到.
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All three species correctly identified.

Why does my book cost HK$1,100 (that's the prepublication offer price - it goes to HK$1,350 once on sale after publication)?

That works out at around 50 cents a species.

To cover the HK fauna with existing publications (Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, Thailand, Borneo, China) for the macro moths would set you back in excess of HK$10,000, then there is a large amount of scattered journal publications and other books for the micromoths that will cost as much again to aquire. Even with this lot, it only covers around 75% of the HK moth fauna.

Then there's the time it has taken to prepare the book, do the fieldwork, identify the species, curate specimens, sort out printers, get the book printed and distributed . . .  This all is paid for up front by me and has already cost several hundred thousand $$$ of my own money (not even started on the printing & distribution costs yet), not to mention the strife and loss of family time. I would like to get some of the $$  back, but I'll never be able to claim back my time that (if I'd chosen not to do the book) I would have spent with my wife and daughters. At the moment I envisage a print run of 2,000 copies. Once trading discounts have been taken into account for overseas distributors and local bookshop chains, I will at best break even if I can sell around half the copies at the full asking price, or around 1,500 copies at trade and prepublication prices. I will not be making a fortune out of this book! I also have to think about the marketing of the book very carefully - it is, afterall, a window to advertise a possible avenue for my future work / employers. Consequently my market is not just the amateur naturalist in HK, but also the institutional market - universities, museums, research units, agricultural foundations....., on a global basis, and these customers demand a certain level of quality that requires a more professional product, and that costs more to produce, so I have to put the selling price up to cover those costs. It has crossed my mind to produce a simpler, smaller "field photo guide" style book that covers the (for example) commonest few hundred species and follow that with a short series, each covering three to four hundred species. Maybe that will happen in time.

My few cents worth for now. Time to get off the soap box!

cheers,

Roger.




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QUOTE:
原帖由 hkmoths 於 2006-11-28 00:15 發表
All three species correctly identified.  

Hi Roger, I have doubt about the ID of #1.
Looks more like Hypopyra vespertilio to me.
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I agree with Chandaiman69.
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Hi David & Nadia,

Take a look at the f/w postmedial fascia. In H. vespertilio this extends to the apex, whereas in S. retorta it is sharply angled about one third the way from the costa to the dorsum and meets the costa, looping around the discal spot, rather than continuing to the apex. The discal "eye spot / swirl" is extremely variable in both species. An additional feature to distinguish between the two is the shape of the forewing. All Hypopyra species have the apical portion of the termen concave, making the apex look distinctly falcate, whereas Spirama species have  the apical portion of the termen straight, as in the photo posted.

Hope this helps you solve your doubts.

I was trying to make the moth into Spirama helicina (which would be new for HK), but couldn't - the underside and lateral sections of the abdomen are a deep crimson colour (= S. retorta), not a pale orange-crimson (=S. helicina). This is just visible in the photo.

cheers,

Roger.

[ Last edited by  hkmoths at 2006-11-28 10:56 ]




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Thanks Roger.
I am more used to seeing retorta with the "Korean" logo.
Are those the WSF and the one here being the DSF ?
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Haven't noticed any trend in seasonal forms for S. retorta, but it's not a species I see very much - 18 previous records on my database, from March to August and two from October, none really would be dry season records bar the last two. I don't recall what "form" these last two were.

cheers,

Roger.




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發表於 2006-11-30 05:33  資料 短消息 
Someone in the Indian Moth yahoo group mentioned about retorta having 4 forms :
helicina, indenta, triloba & rosacea. Yet he didn't post any further details.
I guess f.helicina may be what is now the S.helicina. Any comment on these forms, Roger ?
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It appaers that 'rosacea' (Spirama rosacea Butler, 1889) is now treated as a synonym of Spirama triloba Guenee, 1852 which is considered as a distinct species.

Spirama retorta was described by Clerck under Phalaena.  I'm not sure about the year.   Some said 1764, other quoted 1759.     In some literature, S. helicina Hubner was treated as synonym of S. retorta.   In more recent literature, the two were separated into two distinct separate species.    The illustration in text books are very confusing.   The mixing up of S. retorta and S. heliciina in these books had made proper recognition of the two moths extremely difficult, at least to me.

If S. retorta and S. helicina are indeed two distinct valid species, I think both of them are occurring in Hong Kong and pictures of both have already been posted by various folks on this and other local natural history websites.

While genitalia study is always the solution for doubtful specis, it may be good if someone can spare the time and energy to sort out which is which and derive a key for identification based on external morphology.

As for the correct id of the first picture of 'james4j ', I opine that it may be ..........  OK! It is not Hypopyra vespertilio.

[ 本帖最後由 nadia 於 2006-11-30 07:22 編輯 ]
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LepIndex entry for Spirama retorta reads retorta Clerck, 1764  Icones Ins. raricorum 2. pl. [54] Phalaena. Other sources (Moths of Nepal part 2, Moths of Thailand vol 3 part 1, Lepid. Cat. 118) list Clerck, 1759 Icones Ins. raricorum 1 pl. 54 fig 2.
I don't have access to the two Clerck publications, but suspect that the 1759 citation is correct and that the 1764 citation is a misreading of the figure for the volume; unless the reverse is true and the error has been perpetuated without checking! Consequently I'm none the wiser!!

Combining the information I have on Noctuidae (not including the error strewn Fauna Sinica Insecta volume on Noctuidae) the following emerges:

Spirama retorta (Clerck, 1759 / 1764)
synonyms:
Noctua spiralis Fabricius, 1775 $+ (Syst. Ent. 592)
Noctua spiralis Fabricius, 1781 # (Spec.Ins.2.:211)
Noctua nyctea Fabricius, 1798 #
Erebus chimista Kollar, [1844] $+ #
Spirama isabella Guenée, 1852 $+ #
Spirama suffumosa Guenée, 1852 $+ #
Spirama cohaerens Walker, 1858 $+ #
Hypopyra martha Butler, 1878 $+ (listed as a valid species in LepIndex)
Spirama simplicior Butler, 1881 $+ (listed as a synonym of Spirama japonica in LepIndex)
Spirama jinchuena Butler, 1883 $+ #
Spirama inaequalis Butler, 1883 $+ #
Spirama cohaerens Moore, 1884-1887 # (nec. Walker, 1858)
Spirama helicina Moore, 1884-1887 # (nec. Hubner, [1831] 1825)
Spirama confusa Butler, 1889 #
Speiredonia rubicunda Warren, 1913 #
Speiredonia crameriana Strand, 1914 #


Spirama helicina (Hübner, 1827) #
Spirama helicina (Hübner, [1831] 1825) $
[note this is the same species as the publication and page entries are identical for both the above citations!]
synonyms:
Spirama japponica Guenée, 1852 $+ (not listed in LepIndex; LepIndex lists Spirama japonica with the same citation, so presumably Poole misspelt the species name and this was repeated by Kononenko & Pinratana)
Spirama aegrota Butler, 1881 $+ (listed as a synonym of Spirama martha in LepIndex)

$ - as listed in Poole, 1989. Lepidopterorum Catologus, Fasc. 118
$+ - as listed in Poole, 1989 and repeated in Kononenko & Pinratana 2005. Moths of Thailand, vol.3 Noctuidae part 1.
# - as listed on LepIndex (BMNH), accessed 30 Nov 2006


From all this it is clear the synonymy is not satisfactorily resolved and further work to elucidate publications and dates of when certain taxa were included or removed from synonymy needs to be undertaken. Unfortunately, Spirama does not occur in Borneo, otherwise the volume on Cataocalinae would have clarified much uncertainty - Holloway simply mentions Spirama under the tribal heading for Hypopyrini and that the relationship between Spirama and Hypopyra needs exploration (if the two were found to be synonymous, then Spirama would have priority).

Notable confusions have been created, e.g.:
1. there are two different helicina species, one a good species (described by Hübner), the other a resdescription of retorta by Moore - the latter is both a junior synonym of retorta and a secondary homonym of helicina Hubner !
2. someone is incorrect regarding the publication of Spirama spiralis
3. the status of Spirama japonica
4. the status of Hypopyra martha

It may be that Poole didn't do a thorough job, judging by the number of taxa "missed". I am inclined to suspect this is the case, even though I am aware the BMNH card index system isn't totally 100% correct.

Nadia, I agree with your conclusion on triloba as a valid species and rosaecea as a synonym thereof. This is how both Poole and LepIndex refer to their status.

As to differentiating helicina (Hubner) from retorta - I will restate what I posted earlier with reference to the ventral surface colour, light crimson in helicina and a dark crimson (almost blood red) in retorta. The lateral abdominal colouration in both Moths of Thailand and Moths of Nepal shows this difference. Of the small sample size illustrated in these two books, the f/w discal "spiral" or "swirl" appears proportionately larger in diameter in helicina. I have not checked this out in HK specimens yet, though I have not yet knowingly seen any true helicina  in HK, either specimens or photos thereof. I am happy to be corrected (with proof) and agree with Nadia, there is no reason why both species shouldn't occur in HK.

As to seasonal forms, in Moths of Nepal the spirama specimens are illustrated as a light form (vernal, March - June) and a dark form (aestival) July - September); the two retorta specimens in Moths of Thailand are both dark forms, captured in March and May at the end of their dry season.

hope you manage to follow this!!

cheers,

Roger.

[ Last edited by  hkmoths at 2006-11-30 12:33 ]




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Just looked up the Korean website that illustrates specimens. - a much larger sample.

For retorta there are 312 specimens

For helicina there are 152 specimens

the dorsal patterning is so variable I wouldn't like to separate the two species on dorsal wing pattern.

cheers,

Roger.




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