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標題: [版務] 為何我不可有「言論自由」批評指責你? [打印本頁]

作者: littlelittle    時間: 2010-4-24 14:05     標題: 為何我不可有「言論自由」批評指責你?

引言自:
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread.php?tid=44673&page=6

QUOTE:
原帖由 hkcobra 於 2010-4-24 11:03 發表
I was informed that Catty's account has been banned.  I think it is a very bad act to ban one's account in order not to let someone say what one wants to express, it is against the freedom of speech.  IT IS A SHAME!!!

When one blames her for labelling a particular person, does he ever reflect on himself on what he has done to others?  Like badmouthing others including consultants, particular NGOs, government officials etc. in a number of other discussions.

If anyone doesn't see me again here, I would have been banned for speaking against those who got the power here.  Power going the wrong way becomes dictatorship

你有「言論自由」批評指責正苦,為何我不可有「言論自由」批評指責你?

hkcobra 質疑的大概就是這個意思吧!

我開新話題,是想獨立討論這個不少人關心的問題,我不是管理員,只是希望引發討論,長遠推動論壇走向完善。

先看看Catty的言論,由09年9月至今, Catty共發表28條帖子,當中有很多是批評版友的:

1. "閣下既"估"計咪又係完全冇科學根據,你係咪依家可以否定政府做既嘢冇效呢?做人要公平科學點好......"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=5
(鬧littlelittle)

2. "唔好避重就輕講一啲對自己有利既嘢啦,...講嘢要持平啲好,唔係好易誤導其他人。
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=5
(批評littlelittle)

3. "Then, the only single species left on the Earth would very likely be yourself after hundreds of years (i.e homo sapiens)!"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=6
(批評MEMEME)

4. "講就天下無敵,做就無能為力,同維園阿哥一樣,小阿哥......"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=6
(批評littlelittle,最後三個字疑似粗口)

5. "it does has meaning......can't you understand english?"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=6
(寸blackdogto唔識英文)

6. "咁樣講就太偏激啦,...唔似得另一些所謂乜乜專家,乜嘢都冇又叫做專家。"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... ;highlight=%2BCatty
(批評littlelittle)

7. "And the stupid green groups support the project....are they crazy!?
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... ;highlight=%2BCatty
(鬧香港海豚保育學會)

8. "I think even for the so-called dolphin expert, he knows only little about finless porpoise..."
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=2
(寸香港海豚保育學會會長洪家耀)

9. "不要只往自己面上貼金,你又有冇見到啲工人冇工開,三餐不保,眼淚都冇得流,你有錢梗係可以"高尚"!"
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... %2BCatty&page=2
(似係鬧blackdogto)

10. "Are you kidding? ..."
http://hkwildlife.net/viewthread ... ;highlight=%2BCatty
(寸山椒)


不同觀點看法當然可以,而且是可貴的!但篤口篤鼻鬧啲版友就唔好啦!

正如人哋「超級跑車論壇」係到討論邊款跑車馬力大、又威又有形,你走入人哋論壇指著呢個果個鬧人唔環保、製造不必要温室氣體、遺害子孫..,梗係畀人趕走啦!

又例如你走入伊斯蘭廟鬧人哋恐佈份子, 鬧人哋套信仰不知所謂,人哋趕你走絕對合理。

咁係咪剝奪言論自由?當然唔係!因為你可以在其他地方繼續批評hkwildlife同個別版友,指名道姓鬧都得,只要不構成法律上的誹謗。

公共的言論自由是必要的、批評正苦是必要的,因為政府只是受大眾委託去管理社會, 市民有責任告訴正苦如何做得更好。

批評別人是可以的、自由的 ,但走進別人的私人社交圈子不斷篤口篤鼻鬧人而畀人禁制亦是合理的。

我理解,hkwildlife.net 不是公共社會,是要註冊進來的一個社交群體(Social group).

[ 本帖最後由 littlelittle 於 2010-4-24 14:15 編輯 ]
作者: Megatron    時間: 2010-4-24 21:35     標題: 回覆 #1 littlelittle 的帖子

我個人覺得就算唔係公共空間, 言論自由一樣有! 不過要基於平等。

平等體現於尊重別人 無論佢既言論與論壇宗旨既準則一樣與否。

被ban版友明顯係持反向意見, 睇過上面既re文 覺得某d算係有文有路, 不過re既引例太簡單(既然唔夠科學化, 咁要舉d例黎睇下回先係科學化....)同用字表達明顯富挑釁性, 某d case唔尊重之前發言既人Ban佢以免佢繼續挑起無必要既爭端都無可口非。簡單d講有權支持 有權反對, 但無權攻擊別人。

其實網上留言係無語氣既, 容易引起不必要既誤會, 用字係應該小心1d
我個人覺得版友們互相尊重, 唔同既意見咪各舉例子,唔係鬧人串人既, 無論去到最後邊面多人支持, 其實都無咩所謂, 依然係版友。

[ 本帖最後由 Megatron 於 2010-4-24 21:37 編輯 ]
作者: littlelittle    時間: 2010-4-24 23:04

用例子說明一下:

甲:正苦都唔係做嘢嘅,官地上畀人斬晒成個天然樹林用嚟種花,只係豎幾個「政府土地」牌就算數!

回應方法一:你有冇腦嫁?豎幾個「政府土地」牌事前查幾多資料呀?唔係工作呀?政府做嘢有程序家嘛!你唔畀佢遲兩日就拉人呀?唔識就唔好講!係又鬧、唔係又閙!社會就係有你啲咁嘅所謂「八十後」嘅滋事份子,所以社會先咁唔和諧,形成深層次矛盾。

回應方法二:為乎合法律規定和確保處事嚴謹無誤,地政總署處理官地被侵佔個案時有一定程序,不能立即拘捕疑人,可能豎牌只是第一步,不妨可以打電話去地政總署追問一下。

[ 本帖最後由 littlelittle 於 2010-4-24 23:32 編輯 ]
作者: kaiserX    時間: 2010-4-25 03:10

唉 人都ban走左 要找理由將其行為合理化唔難
不竟 人地已經沒機會o係度為自己辯護
再羅列佢所謂既"罪狀" 未免太過唔去
恕我冒犯 這比我感覺只係另一種橫蠻..........
睇番你列出佢既留言 最多只係可以講佢indecent 但又未至於惡意中傷他人...

我同意上述諸位所講 唔好假借言論自由這漂亮又堂而皇之既借口而肆意中傷他人
但坦白講 逐走既那人真係咁? 係就係rude 但我覺得佢分人幾爽直

我明白要管理一個論壇既因難  同時要照頺其他會員既感受及一些潛而物化規則
但有時 水清則無魚
論壇內有不同類型的會員 對事的看法不同 先可以睇到更多唔同既觀點,角度同立場 對論壇係有彼益
正如單一物種的生境定不及物種多樣既生境吸引精彩

如何拿捏 就要看管理者既智慧
作者: blackdogto    時間: 2010-4-25 08:25     標題: 回覆 #4 kaiserX 的帖子

贊同你的見解, 但當你發現有些人的post佔絕大部份都是惡意針對別人的時候, 你就會明白有人當中是在"搞事".

其實我相信呢度好歡迎不同意見, 亦見過好多post係各有不同意見的, 最後都容許繼續討論, 但我相信呢個地方唔係太歡迎有人響度搞事囉, 管理呢個forum的人不是受薪的, 佢地冇可能花咁多時間去處理埋人士問題!
作者: hkcobra    時間: 2010-4-25 12:09     標題: 回覆 #5 blackdogto 的帖子

I think we do have to reflect on what she said and what we said.  When you criticized her saying, recall what you said about others.
作者: blackdogto    時間: 2010-4-25 13:12

I dont know if u have read it or not but I think it is more proper to post it here again....

QUOTE:
回覆 #119 hkcobra 的帖子


I get ur point but I think u should be more clear-minded in these issues.

Yes, I like to blame the others (esp. Govern't) in this forum if they have done somethings wrong (maybe in my personal view only). It is a kind of expression to share with the members of the forum. If someone in the forum disagree with me, they can discuss too. There is no problem. And if the representatives of those parties (e.g. Govern't) are involved in the discussion, I promise to discuss with them in a positive way but not the attitude as my blame. Sure, no representatives of Governt are willing to discuss and I know we are just small potato that they just ignore us.

In this case, situation is totally different. The ppls in this post having different opinion are all discussing in a positive ways at the begining (even Catty). Her attitute getting worse but it is only her words in #111 having problem i think. Not matter how she want to argue, even she blame the other's act, it is not proper to 發老脾 by saying some meaningless words like "維園阿哥"....... It is totally destructive to the discussion and "inflamming" especially when those peoples are still involved in the discussion.

For example, if u admit to be a respresentative of those parties (e.g. consultant, Government) and are involved in any one of the discussion, I promise not to use any badmouthing words towards those parties in that discussion.

Although I am not the webmaster in this forum, I think this forum is a platform to let ppls share and discuss there experience, findings, expression which are related to wildlife, surely include the policy of Govern't. But it is not a battlefield to let ppls fight or mess.

I hope it will be my last reply on this issue.... BTW, I do not think what I said and what I did are always right. I accept to be banned in this forum if I have done somethings improper. I will recall what I have said but it do not affect my interpretation on what's happened.
作者: hkcobra    時間: 2010-4-25 13:38     標題: 回覆 #7 blackdogto 的帖子

Thanks for reminding.  I have read your explanation.  I am not pinpointing you.  Many others here also criticized or badmouthing others, but they are not banned from this forum.  And frankly speaking, I don't agree with littlelittle's way of digging out all Catty's sayings and argued that Catty's way of expressions had problems.  It only reflects on his own "interpretation".  I am not going to give a detailed listing of what others say, but I do recall some persons including littlelittle have had similar wordings criticizing others as Catty's.   Let's hope that we could be more fair in dealing with one's words.
作者: littlelittle    時間: 2010-4-25 16:22

I believe if I say a person has done some appropriate things and it is reasonable for this person to be banned from a forum. To be fair to this person, I have to list out facts and my interpretations to support what I am saying. I cannot just say: "佢唔啱,抵比人ban啦!". Similarly, one cannot just say:' I do recall Chan Tai Man is a bad quy, a liar, but I am not going to give a detailed listing of what others say". I think I've not used similar wordings as "維園阿哥一樣,小阿哥......", "can't you understand english?", "stupid", when criticizing other members. I think you are not pinpointing me as well!

I have to say: I've never complained to the administrator about Catty. Therefore, I am not the "cause" to Catty's left.

Of course, she was not banned by me. I am only an ordinary member in this forum, I have no such power.

I am only a member who do not like what Catty has said and chose to make no response to whatever she says since my 2nd responses to her on 17 Oct, 2009. If administrator had done nothing on her. I would simply keeping my mouth shut towards her.

Administrator banned Catty, someone disagreed, saying that it is against freedom of speech and a shame. I thought it is worth discussing. Therefore, I expressed my viewpoints and my support to what the administrator had done.

[ 本帖最後由 littlelittle 於 2010-4-25 17:18 編輯 ]
作者: littlelittle    時間: 2010-4-25 16:57



QUOTE:
原帖由 hkcobra 於 2010-4-25 13:38 發表
Many others here also criticized or badmouthing others, but they are not banned from this forum...

One more point: So far as I notice, since the establishment of this forum, within the 1632 members, there have been only several members has badmouthed other members, and they were probably all banned. If you say "Many other here...", please provide evident, or if you don't want to disclose here, please made complaint to the administrator, or may you please adjust your wordings!

Thank you!

Remarks: "blackmouthing" means "to criticize or disparage, often spitefully or unfairly" . A very negative act.

[ 本帖最後由 littlelittle 於 2010-4-25 17:12 編輯 ]
作者: rosara    時間: 2010-4-25 17:02



QUOTE:
原帖由 littlelittle 於 2010-4-24 23:04 發表
用例子說明一下:

甲:正苦都唔係做嘢嘅,官地上畀人斬晒成個天然樹林用嚟種花,只係豎幾個「政府土地」牌就算數!

回應方法一:你有冇腦嫁?豎幾個「政府土地」牌事前查幾多資料呀?唔係工作呀?政府做嘢有程序家嘛!你唔畀佢遲兩日就 ...

人身攻擊及侮辱別人,呢種惡意言詞 ban 得遲啦!
作者: 深藍-Owen    時間: 2010-4-25 19:28

個 post 我可以講係旁觀者. 我只係久唔久 click 入去睇下 (每當比人抽返上黎時). 因為完全唔係我熟悉既範疇, 所以係搭唔到咀. 但好強烈比到我感覺. 係有人係到玩針對.

邊 d 係針對 邊 d 係辯論. 我諗我有足夠既智慧去分清楚.

大家可以繼續質疑我有冇錯. 但無礙我立場.

順便講聲. 過去所有比人 ban 既人. 都係我 ban 既. 同其他版主無關. 我亦冇諮詢過佢地. 全憑自己既感覺, 呢到我係咪獨裁? 都係架. 但無理由我要浪費我 d resources 比你做 d 我唔喜歡既野架嘛.

又講講我同 littlelittle 關係. 我諗我見過佢大概兩至三次到. 通電話大概試過一次. 就係上次龍尾諮詢會我打比佢問佢結果係點. 其他就真係冇咩交流.

仲有. "超級版主"呢 d 係整個 forum 呢個 software default 既用詞. 我亦懶得改佢. 版主同超級版主既分別就係只管理一個版或多於一個版. 因為我唔想續個續個版 assign 個 rights 比個版主. 就係咁簡單.

大家記住, "超級版主" 絕對唔係比你地用黎揶揄既名詞.

講完.
作者: hkcobra    時間: 2010-4-25 22:20     標題: 回覆 #10 littlelittle 的帖子

I am not defending Catty.  Is it a grand act to list out what others said in the past to find out her faults?  Is it a gentleman's act to attack a lady just because she is saying something that's not what you want to hear?  And remember, she did not point out who is the dolphin expert but you did........

I just want to say many existing forum users here also badmouthing outsiders (not users I may say).  Maybe I recall incorrectly, have you badmouthing the consultant for the Lung Mei case?  Saying bad words against him ... was it true?

I am not going to say anything on this any more.  Stop it here.
作者: littlelittle    時間: 2010-4-25 23:09     標題: 回覆 #13 hkcobra 的帖子

Perhaps it is not the "big issue" of freedom of speech as I thought.  I am wrong to have started this discussion.

I finally understand what's happening.

Yes! I did criticized "Lung Mei" consultant for spending millions of tax payers' money but doing bad things to our environment.

I also stop here.
作者: bigwasp    時間: 2010-4-26 08:36

Hi, I am new to this forum.  I had no idea of what others said before...but aftering reading the discussion, I tend to think that it is a bit a shame for all the big men to attack a girl.....

第一篇文章的一些指控好似有點扣人帽子喎 ....

唔好意思,小女子想幫吓同性啫.....各位哥哥包函
作者: rosara    時間: 2010-4-26 12:06



QUOTE:
原帖由 bigwasp 於 2010-4-26 08:36 發表
Hi, I am new to this forum.  I had no idea of what others said before...but aftering reading the discussion, I tend to think that it is a bit a shame for all the big men to attack a girl.....

第一篇 ...

I'm also new here, 我個人覺得為幫同性而幫,好似唔係好客觀囉。我睇過下篇文,唔覺得有sexual discrimination 既成分囉。

Frankly speaking, I just realized that one member criticized other members personally.

為免部份 members 被扣上性別歧視的帽子,也請女 members 講句公道話呢。

[ 本帖最後由 rosara 於 2010-4-26 19:25 編輯 ]
作者: kingarthur    時間: 2010-4-26 13:57     標題: 回覆 #15 bigwasp 的帖子

when you are wrong, it's nothing to do with your sex.
Mother Nature did give us brain to learn and think to get wise, don't waste it.
作者: bigwasp    時間: 2010-4-26 13:58     標題: 回覆 #17 kingarthur 的帖子

Your saying is similar to the one being criticized........so you mean I have no brain
作者: hillypan    時間: 2010-4-26 14:36

其實網上世界大家3唔識7,每個人對字眼的演繹亦都有別,除非真人認識又知對方唔介意,否則講野真係唔應該咁口直心快,因為人地唔知你無意定係有心/有骨,打出來的字覆水難收.
大家上得呢個論壇應該係愛護自然既有心人,只要呢個方向不變,其實不用太介意別人的話語,做好自己就得.
作者: rosara    時間: 2010-4-26 15:06



QUOTE:
原帖由 kingarthur 於 2010-4-26 13:57 發表
when you are wrong, it's nothing to do with your sex.
Mother Nature did give us brain to learn and think to get wise, don't waste it.

This is also personal attack ar, Your Majesty.

[ 本帖最後由 rosara 於 2010-4-26 15:20 編輯 ]
作者: 深藍-Owen    時間: 2010-4-26 16:27

coincidentally...bigwasp got the same ip as Catty.. account banned.
作者: SIUFA    時間: 2010-5-31 19:25

唔開新題了 ~

想請問點解果條「影蝶比賽」失蹤?
作者: blackdogto    時間: 2010-5-31 23:39     標題: 回覆 #22 SIUFA 的帖子

因為發帖人已經改左題目並要求刪除.......
作者: SIUFA    時間: 2010-6-1 10:29

其實可以唔刪除, 尊重題主意見
作者: blackdogto    時間: 2010-6-1 10:47     標題: 回覆 #24 SIUFA 的帖子

我都唔想刪, 但係佢成個題目改晒啦.....
作者: rosara    時間: 2010-6-1 10:48



QUOTE:
原帖由 SIUFA 於 2010-6-1 10:29 發表
其實可以唔刪除, 尊重題主意見

無所謂啦,網主話唔支持,我都要尊重網主既意見。而且,經其他師兄解釋原因後,我判斷過,認為網主既想法係合理既;同我既立場無抵觸,係我自願及要求刪帖既,由頭到尾,該帖都唔存在任何意見沖突(除左我無機會睇到 SIUFA 兄最後發言之內容)。

其實我起帖都唔係有咩意見要發表,只不過見有攝影比賽咪分享下囉,都唔知有咁多背景........




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